Interview with Mario Pavone

Bassist-Composer Extraordinaire, Colleague, Collaborator and Great Friend of Thomas Chapin

A piano-player friend said I had to hear this guy who was playing in Bushnell Park in Hartford. It was July of 1980, and a great concert – a Mingus tribute under the direction of Paul Jeffrey. Junior Cook and Bill Hardman, some local people, an interesting mix of people. And damn, every time Chaps stood up to solo he killed everybody – and he wasn't that long out of school. I said I had to meet this guy, and we went from there. Within a few months, we ended up being in each other's projects, and worked together for 18 years.

At times, it was probably a little frustrating for Thomas, because I couldn't sight-read as quickly as he wanted. But for all his training, he had the in and the out down. Bridging those gaps was one of his great contributions. He would always say, ""No matter how out a musician is, I can usually hear his sources; but I can't hear your sources."" He saw me, more or less, as something like a native folk painter, with an emphasis on time.

Thomas was the beginning of a whole pile of players who, when they see single-line music written, intuitively come up with a harmonic approach. A whole host of guys like Marty Ehrlich, Tim Berne and Tony Malaby, thanks to the studies they did have, intuit a harmonic relationship. We did play tunes at first; but when Thomas broke off from Lionel, he decided to go with an out-leaning trio, and decided I was the guy to go with.

I don't think he took any music as the ""hobby"" part of playing. He had a lot of fun with Lionel, and they played a lot of great music. During that time, his ""in the tradition"" playing took a natural turn further out. He heard what was going on around him and moved that way. He was a little frustrated with playing on changes, and when he left Hamp it was just a natural outgrowth. He did continue to play tunes, and made those records on Arabesque as well as on club gigs with me. His best changes playing was never captured on records, to a great degree.

The world music influence was him more than me. Sarin and Thomas were deeply into African and Latin music, and had all of those rhythms down. Michael Musilami and Andy Jaffe have a grant to work on Thomas' Latin tunes, and they may involve Hermeto.

Right after the first trio gig, with Pheeroan on drums, Thomas and I sat down and talked. Thomas thought that the trio had great potential, and wanted to make sure that I was up for it. We moved from Steve Johns to Michael Sarin. We had a rehearsal with Steve where Tomas brought in some new, simple structures that really applied what he learned in Hampton's big band to a trio. There were few unisons; my parts were real parts, and we were very active. I wouldn't relate it to a trio like Air, it was more like big-band trio. ""Iddly"" was his big-band theme. It was extraordinary, and it continued to build the whole time we played.

There were frustrations. We had the normal kind of gripes on drives to gigs – would we get invited to the bigger festivals or whatever. But it seemed that, every time, the wishes were answered. When I look at it now, every solo he took was with the thought in mind that he might not be around to play another. Every solo was like two solos.

He was smart, well-informed, full of incredible energy, a virtuoso, experimenting and pushing the envelope all of the time, never letting up.

I still try to perform one or two of his pieces at each gig. It's interesting how they stand the test of time. I like the idea of doing them in a piano-trio context, rather than with another horn. They're different than my pieces, but we got from each other through osmosis. I keep his stuff alive because it is alive. I have the four pieces he wrote for trio plus woodwinds, and my goal is to perform them. I've talked to Marty Ehrlich, and we will do this.

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